537
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF SHELBY COUNTY,
TENNESSEE FOR THE THIRTIETH JUDICIAL
DISTRICT AT MEMPHIS
_______________________________________________
CORETTA SCOTT KING, et al,
Plaintiffs,
Vs. Case No. 97242
LOYD JOWERS, et al,
Defendants.
_______________________________________________
PROCEEDINGS
November 22nd, 1999
VOLUME V
_______________________________________________
Before the Honorable James E. Swearengen,
Division 4, judge presiding.
_______________________________________________
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI,
RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
COURT REPORTERS
Suite 2200, One Commerce Square
Memphis, Tennessee 38103
(901) 529-1999
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
538
- APPEARANCES -
For the Plaintiff: DR. WILLIAM PEPPER
Attorney at Law
New York City, New York
For the Defendant:
MR. LEWIS GARRISON
Attorney at Law
Memphis, Tennessee
Court Reported by:
MR. BRIAN F. DOMINSKI
Certificate of Merit
Registered Professional
Reporter
Daniel, Dillinger,
Dominski, Richberger &
Weatherford
22nd Floor
One Commerce Square
Memphis, Tennessee 38103
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
539
- INDEX -
WITNESS: PAGE/LINE NUMBER
TAPE OF DEXTER KING/ANDREW
YOUNG/LOYD JOWERS PLAYED
TO THE JURY........................... 542 19
ARTHUR HAYNES, JR.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. PEPPER......................... 645 19
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. GARRISON:...................... 662 24
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. PEPPER:........................ 667 21
BOBBIE BALFOUR
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. PEPPER:........................ 671 9
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. GARRISON:...................... 680 2
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. PEPPER:........................ 682 21
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. GARRISON:...................... 684 4
WILLIAM R. KEY
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. PEPPER:........................ 684 20
JOE B. BROWN
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. PEPPER:........................ 690 23
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
540
(November 22nd, 1999, 10:15 a.m.)
THE COURT: Mr. James, would you
bring the jury out, please.
(Jury in.)
THE COURT: Good morning, ladies
and gentlemen. Glad to see that all of you
survived the weekend. We're going to proceed
with our trial at this point.
Mr. Pepper, what's your next order
of proof?
MR. PEPPER: Yes, Your Honor.
If it please the Court, we'd like to --
plaintiffs would like to continue where we
left off with Ambassador Young's testimony by
going directly into the tape-recording of the
meeting that he described with the
defendant.
Though the Court may wish to break
from time to time, we -- the plaintiffs feel
it is important for the jury to hear the
entirety of that tape.
THE COURT: I believe you said
Friday it is about two hours long?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
541
MR. PEPPER: We believe it is
about two hours.
THE COURT: It might get too
exciting for us.
MR. PEPPER: We might have to
take a break after an hour or so.
THE COURT: Whatever pleases the
Court. Thank you.
THE COURT: We'll begin with
that. Go ahead.
If you would just explain to the
jury the circumstances under which this tape
was made, where it was and then it might be a
little more meaningful.
MR. PEPPER: The tape was made
approximately a year ago, as Ambassador Young
testified. And it was made here in the State
of Tennessee. The participants at the
meeting were the defendant, Mr. Loyd Jowers,
his attorney, Mr. Louis Garrison, Ambassador
Andrew Young and plaintiff Dexter Scott
King.
They came together for the purpose
really of discussing the underlying cause of
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
542
action in this case, Mr. Jowers' role in
respect to the killing of Martin Luther
King.
While there is introductory
information and some banter occasionally, we
would ask the Court and the jury to listen
carefully to the various questions and the
responses to those questions.
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, we'd
like to have it started at the very
beginning.
MR. PEPPER: Yes, sir. I've
asked the technician to start it from the
beginning.
THE COURT: All right. Go
ahead.
(Tape played for the jury in
open court as follows:)
"LOYD JOWERS: Dexter, what you
been up to?
DEXTER KING: Well, I've been
keeping busy, working hard, traveling a lot.
LOYD JOWERS: You work a lot at
night, don't you?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
543
DEXTER KING: I do. You
remember. I was working late one night in my
office when I talked to you.
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
DEXTER KING: Keeping, you
know, keeping all things moving forward, just
still trying to deal with this issue. This
is a very trying issue, because, as you know,
my family, particularly my mother, I've been
concerned about because the media has been
very vicious --
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah.
DEXTER KING: -- in trying to
discredit and attack, you know, the family.
We had hoped that we would get to the bottom
of this so we can move on. I think in order
to have true closure, you have to get it
out. You have to get it out in the open.
So we appreciate your willingness to
open up and come forward. As you know, we
continue to support immunity for you, but, as
you know, the District Attorney doesn't seem
like they want the story to come out. So it
appears they are shutting everything down.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
544
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
DEXTER KING: I think that
would be a major tragedy.
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, it would be,
definitely.
Don't you think so, Mr. Young?
ANDREW YOUNG: I do. In fact,
I think that -- I don't think I would be out
of order in saying if something happened and
you were indicted for anything, then I would
sure be willing to come over here and testify
on your behalf as having been -- as having
been very helpful to us in trying to
understand that. We would want to make sure
that nothing happened to you.
LOYD JOWERS: Well, you know,
this is what I don't understand, and I never
did understand it about President Kennedy:
That they know there has got to be a
conspiracy. Why they won't admit that and go
from there on the basis of prosecution,
whatever they have to do, I don't understand
why they won't do it.
LEWIS GARRISON: Mr. Jowers, Mr.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
545
King and and Mr. Young have read the account
of this that I had written from what you had
and I had talked about. So they want to
question you.
LOYD JOWERS: Okay. Any time
you get ready.
LEWIS GARRISON: Feel free to go
forth.
DEXTER KING: When we last met,
you had pretty much taken us I think up to a
point where you had received the rifle from
Lieutenant Clark.
DEXTER KING: And you thought
it was a 30-30, you said, and you might have
been mistaken, that it was a 30-06.
LOYD JOWERS: I very well could
have been. Let me tell you that I knew he
owned a 30-30. I couldn't swear that that
was Clark that I took it from, but I believe
it was.
Now, see, it happened just about
that quick. (Snap of fingers.) I was at the
back door at six-oh-clock like I was supposed
to be. How many seconds did it take him to
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
546
hand me that rifle and get going? That was
just a split second.
LEWIS GARRISON: You said it was
still smoking?
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, the smoke was
still coming out the barrel of the rifle. I
breached it. Of course, that's what you've
got to do before you break one down.
LEWIS GARRISON: Clark had been
back that night, that afternoon?
LOYD JOWERS: He had been in the
place that day, yeah.
LEWIS GARRISON: Had you seen
him go in the back?
LOYD JOWERS: He went back and
looked out the back. You see, the way the
grill was laid out, up here is where all your
customers are. The kitchen is here. Back
here we've got a storeroom. He walked all
the way back.
Of course, I was there working, you
know. I didn't really pay attention to him.
Of course, he was a friend of mine.
ANDREW YOUNG: You met him by
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
547
the back door by the storeroom?
LOYD JOWERS: You are talking
about that night?
ANDREW YOUNG: Yes.
LOYD JOWERS: Yes, I met him --
yes, I was at the back door.
ANDREW YOUNG: Out of the
storeroom?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
ANDREW YOUNG: And he came up
from the woods back there or bushes?
LOYD JOWERS: From the bushes.
ANDREW YOUNG: And he handed you
the rifle?
LOYD JOWERS: About that quick.
All I got was a glance of him. I had the
back door standing open. I didn't have to
open the door or anything. It was standing
open. The rifle was smoking.
I'll put it like this: I thought it
was a 30-30. I didn't examine it. I didn't
have time. All I done was get that empty
shell out of it, and there were no other
shells in it but that one. That's all that
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
548
was in there.
The rifle was smoking. I broke it
down right quick, put it up under my apron,
walked up to the front, set it underneath the
counter. I wrapped it in a table cloth
first.
I stuck it under the counter and
went on up to the front of the building. By
the time the police got there, it took them
about two, two and a half minutes to get
there, I didn't have time to see nobody or do
nothing getting up there that quick. Of
course, I was working by myself.
ANDREW YOUNG: You had heard
the shot before you went to the back?
LOYD JOWERS: No, I was already
in the back.
ANDREW YOUNG: You were already
in the back at six-oh-clock?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
ANDREW YOUNG: You heard the
shot from from back there?
LOYD JOWERS: One shot is all I
heard.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
549
LEWIS GARRISON: You'd been told
to be back there at six, hadn't you?
LOYD JOWERS: I had been told to
be back there at six, yeah, that a man was
going to pass me a package. He didn't tell
me what it was. I certainly didn't know he
was going to shoot anybody, especially Dr.
King, the fact it turned out to be.
What I would have bet was a 30-30,
but it could have been a 30-06. There is not
that much difference in them if you ever
compared them. There is not that much
difference in them. They both break down
about the same way. I didn't have to break
it down, but I was told to --
ANDREW YOUNG: Did you used to
go hunting with Mr. Clark?
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah. I went
hunting with him. Never went with him any
more after that, though.
LEWIS GARRISON: You said you
and Mr. Clark worked at the police department
at same time, that you were a police officer
at the same time he was?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
550
LOYD JOWERS: He come on the
police department just a short time before I
got off. But now we went hunting down in
Mississippi pretty regularly, went hunting on
Rex Chenault's place down in Mississippi,
down below Hernando.
ANDREW YOUNG: Is Mr. Clark
still alive?
LOYD JOWERS: I think he is,
isn't he?
LEWIS GARRISON: No, he is dead.
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, is he?
LEWIS GARRISON: His wife is
still living, though. Mr. Barger is dead.
The only one that is still living is
Officer Zachery, who was in and out of the
grill, wasn't he?
LOYD JOWERS: Well, unless I'm
mistaken about this, Officer Zachery was in
charge of the men that was in charge of Dr.
King's security. Now, I could be wrong about
that, but that's what I thought.
LEWIS GARRISON: He was in and
out of the grill some, Officer Zachery.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
551
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah.
LEWIS GARRISON: Merrell
McCullough was there, that's one of the first
ones you ever mentioned?
LOYD JOWERS: McCullough, yeah.
LEWIS GARRISON: How was he
identified? How was he introduced to you,
Merrell McCullough? Who introduced him to
you?
LOYD JOWERS: I don't remember
if it was Clark or Johnny Barger. It was one
or the other of them.
Now, Johnny Barger was my partner.
We were policemen together. He is the one
who introduced me to Frank Liberto. We used
to go there quite often. They was real good
friends.
Of course, I got to be pretty good
friends with Frank, because he could do you a
lot of good in Memphis, especially on the
police department.
DEXTER KING: Did you know
Frank's family, like his wife?
LOYD JOWERS: I met her one
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
552
time, but as far as really knowing her, I
can't say I did. I never was out with her
ever at a party or anything.
DEXTER KING: Do you know her
name?
LOYD JOWERS: I always called
her Ms. Liberto.
LEWIS GARRISON: Is she still
living?
DEXTER KING: Is she still
living?
LOYD JOWERS: I think she is.
Dexter, you do remember I'm hard of
hearing, don't you? I only hear about thirty
percent in this ear. That's the reason we're
taping this, because sometimes I don't get a
question right. If I don't get it right, I
can't answer it right.
LEWIS GARRISON: They took -- I
don't know if you and Mr. Young are aware or
not, but the FBI questioned Mrs. Liberto, who
was the mother of Mr. Liberto, and his
brother, who was on the police force, and
I've got copies of those statements.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
553
DEXTER KING: Was his brother
Charles?
LEWIS GARRISON: A Memphis
police officer. They had a picture of Mr.
Ray. They all asked if they knew him, and
they said they did not but he looked
familiar, like someone they had seen around.
DEXTER KING: When they saw the
picture of Ray you are saying they thought it
was somebody --
LEWIS GARRISON: Mr. Ray claimed
in his deposition he had gone to New Orleans
to meet with Raul. In her affidavit and
also his brother and I believe someone else,
they all said Mr. Ray's face looked familiar.
DEXTER KING: Was the brother a
police officer in New Orleans?
LEWIS GARRISON: Yeah. He is
retired now. He is still there, as far as I
know.
DEXTER KING: Does he have a
business?
LEWIS GARRISON: He may. I'm
not sure, to be honest with you. I'm not
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
554
sure. He is retired from the police
department. He may have a business. I'm not
sure.
DEXTER KING: Do you know
anything about his brother, Charles?
LOYD JOWERS: The one that lives
in New Orleans?
DEXTER KING: I think so.
Charles.
LOYD JOWERS: No, sir. I never
did know Charles. Now, I heard of him.
Frank told me about him. But I never met
him, as far as I can remember. I never met
Charles.
DEXTER KING: What about in Dr.
Pepper's book he talks about the market, I
think L&M or I think L&L, Latch & Liberto?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, over on
Scott Street.
DEXTER KING: Okay. I think
there was a Frank Liberto, a produce dealer,
and a Frank Liberto --
LEWIS GARRISON: There were
three of them.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
555
DEXTER KING: There were three.
LEWIS GARRISON: A car salesman,
liquor store owner and produce dealer.
DEXTER KING: I was going to
ask you did you know all of the three or any
of the three?
LOYD JOWERS: The only one I
knew was Frank. He is the one that always
called me. Like I say, I handled that one
hundred thousand dollars for him. But it
wasn't the first time I handled money for
him. But it was the last time.
DEXTER KING: Let me
understand. They would ask you to receive
the money. They would send it over in a
box?
LOYD JOWERS: With my produce,
yeah, in the bottom.
DEXTER KING: Then somebody
would pick it up from you?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
DEXTER KING: Pick up the box.
Okay. Now, in the case of the one hundred
thousand that they sent over, did they tell
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
556
you that it was for, you know --
LOYD JOWERS: They never told me
what -- none of the money I handled for them
over the years, they would never tell me what
it was for, just that it would be in there.
This time they told me how much it was. But
I didn't count it. I did not. I never
counted it.
LEWIS GARRISON: Describe for
them what it looked like, Mr. Jowers.
LOYD JOWERS: Well, it was in
one-hundred-dollar bills. Heck, I don't know
how thick it was. About like that. Two
rubber bands around them, one on each end.
It was in a brown paper bag.
ANDREW YOUNG: It was in with
your vegetables?
LOYD JOWERS: It was underneath
my vegetables, it sure was.
DEXTER KING: Now, who picked
up that box?
LOYD JOWERS: First Frank called
me and told me there will be a Cuban by to
pick it up. He said, you give him that
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
557
package. That's when he told me that there
was a hundred thousand dollars in it.
I told him, said, Frank, you know I
ain't going to count that money. If it is a
hundred thousand, that's fine. If there is
not that much, that will have to be fine,
too.
Then he called me back -- let's
see. That was on a Wednesday morning. Then
he called me back and said, now, that wetback
is going to be by there to get that package
that is going to be handed in that back
door. He called him a wetback. I never
heard a Cuban called a wetback. So I don't
know if it was a Cuban or a Mexican, but it
was definitely a foreigner.
DEXTER KING: Was that Raul?
LOYD JOWERS: That's what they
said his name was. I don't believe that was
his name anymore than I believe yours is Jack
Thomas.
DEXTER KING: Why is that?
LOYD JOWERS: I just don't
believe that. Why would a man use his own
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
558
name when he is involved in something like
that? Why would he do that?
No, he would use Jack Jones or --
but Raul, I was going to look that up and
see what that stands for in a foreign
language. I'm not sure what it stands for.
But it is very common among foreigners.
LEWIS GARRISON: You at first
thought he said Royal, didn't you?
LOYD JOWERS: I thought he said
Royal, I sure did. But he corrected me and
told me Raul. I said, well, whatever.
LEWIS GARRISON: Did you know
any of Frank Liberto's close friends, who his
close friends were?
LOYD JOWERS: Well, the lady
that owned a restaurant out on in Highland
Heights.
DEXTER KING: Is that Lavada
Whitlock Addison?
LOYD JOWERS: Ms. Whitlock,
right. Now, I met her one time back along
about that time. She wasn't all that old a
woman, either. I don't remember what the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
559
occasion was, but I did meet her. Of course,
I knew Nathan over the years after the
assassination took place. I knew Nathan real
well.
DEXTER KING: That was her
son?
LOYD JOWERS: Pardon?
DEXTER KING: Nathan was her
son, right?
LOYD JOWERS: Yes, sir.
DEXTER KING: Now, he knew
Liberto as well?
LOYD JOWERS: He knew him real
well. See, Ms. Whitlock owned a restaurant
out on Highland Heights, on Macon Road, I
believe. I believe that's where it was.
Frank used to stop in there all the time.
The fact is he tried to go to bed
with her all the time, Mrs. Whitlock. He may
have. I don't know. Anyway, he'd get oiled
up, get drunked up, and he'd do a lot of
talking.
DEXTER KING: Do you know any
other friends of his or were those the only
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
560
two?
LOYD JOWERS: You know, apart
from the people on the police department,
Johnny Barger, I'm not sure if Cross was a
friend of his or not, but I know Johnny
Barger was.
We used to be in a squad car in a
territory and we'd leave our territory and go
over on Scott Street to his place of
business. Sometimes we'd stay but a few
minutes, then other times we'd stay longer
than that.
See, you have to understand that
back then, back then everything was done
politically. If you got anywhere, you had to
know somebody that knew somebody. It is
almost that way now, but it was really,
really bad back then. There was no blacks on
the police department, it was just an unheard
of thing.
ANDREW YOUNG: Was that Crump
time? Was Crump in office back then?
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah. Crump
is the one that got me the job. I went to
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
561
see him on a Monday, and on a Thursday I went
to see the police commissioner. That Monday
morning I was riding in a squad car with a 38
hanging on my side, billy stick hanging on
this side. That's just the way things
operated back then.
ANDREW YOUNG: Were you in the
military?
LOYD JOWERS: I was in the Navy,
yes. I had been discharged out at
Millington, I don't know, less than a year
after I went on the police department.
Jobs were kind of hard to find back
then. They were doubly hard for black
people. It was hard enough for white people,
but it was tough on blacks back then to find
a job.
DEXTER KING: Any other friends
that come to mind of Mr. Liberto's?
LOYD JOWERS: No, I can't think
of any more. I really can't.
DEXTER KING: What about in
Texas, did you know of any of his
relationships with friends in Texas?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
562
LOYD JOWERS: Who? Frank?
DEXTER KING: Yes.
LOYD JOWERS: No, sir, I didn't
know any. I didn't know he had people
there. I knew he had a brother that lived in
New Orleans.
DEXTER KING: So you weren't
aware of any business he may have been in
Texas or New Orleans?
LOYD JOWERS: No.
DEXTER KING: You just knew he
had a brother?
LOYD JOWERS: I knew he had a
brother that lived in New Orleans. I don't
remember who told me. I don't think Frank
told me, but he said he was in the same
business that Frank was in. And by that --
DEXTER KING: You mean produce?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah. Yeah. And
in the Mafia.
DEXTER KING: When did he first
talk to you about the killing?
LOYD JOWERS: About the killing
of Dr. Martin Luther King?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
563
DEXTER KING: Uh-huh.
LOYD JOWERS: After it took
place. After it took place.
DEXTER KING: The thing I read
is a little confusing from Mr. Garrison, the
part about -- I thought it said that Frank
Liberto was discussing this potential riot or
March beforehand.
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, we talked
about that, sure. But there was no killing
mentioned, no.
DEXTER KING: Okay. But when
he said or alleged that he said that he would
go home with his toes in the air, sticking in
the air or something, sticking up, that if he
comes here, in other words, he will leave
dead, I mean, that's the way I interpreted
it.
LOYD JOWERS: If Frank Liberto
ever told me that, I don't remember. But I
wouldn't doubt him saying that. I would
not. Because that's just the way he was.
DEXTER KING: So you don't
remember talking about the killing until
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
564
actually after it took place?
LOYD JOWERS: If he -- he didn't
mention it until after the fact. I do not
remember.
DEXTER KING: When he did, what
did he tell you, when he finally mentioned
it?
LOYD JOWERS: He asked me a
question. He didn't come down to the place.
He called me on the phone. He said, do you
know what that bundle money was for? I said,
well, I have no idea. He said, well, that's
what it cost me to get King killed.
Word for word, that's what he told
me. I almost dropped the damn telephone.
Well, you know, it surprised me. I figured
it was to buy guns with or dope or whatever
it was he was dealing with.
DEXTER KING: So you were
surprised? You were really shocked?
LOYD JOWERS: I certainly was.
Why, sure I was. Now, if there was no
conspiracy -- let me pass this by you. If
there was no conspiracy, Dr. King, whenever
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
565
he come up to Memphis, he checked into the
Rivermont Hotel where he stayed when he come
to Memphis. Everybody knew that. I knew it,
even. I kept up with him not real close.
You know, the black people that come in my
restaurant, we'd talk about it. I'd carry on
a conversation with them.
The very next day, I think the very
next day, they moved him over to the
Lorraine.
Okay. Now -- I can't remember her
name. Anyway, the lady that runs the place.
DEXTER KING: Ms. Bailey?
LOYD JOWERS: Ms. Bailey. She
put him downstairs. They almost -- I don't
think he stayed downstairs one night. They
almost immediately moved him to the second
floor.
Now, there had to be a conspiracy.
I couldn't have done it. James Earl Ray
couldn't have done it. There had -- it had
to be his security people or the CIA or the
FBI. It had to be.
DEXTER KING: Did you know of
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
566
anybody else who may have mentioned the plot
before, you know, it happened other than
Liberto? I mean, did anybody mention the
possibility that this might happen or that it
was going to happen to you?
LOYD JOWERS: I don't remember
anyone mentioning it black or white. I
really don't. I had about half my
customers -- I'm talking about overall about
half black and half white, because I was in a
mixed neighborhood. Which was fine with me.
I didn't care what color they were. You
know, I always tried to see that everybody
had enough food when they left. But to my
knowledge, no one ever mentioned that.
ANDREW YOUNG: Mr. Jowers, do
you mind saying how old you are now?
LOYD JOWERS: I'm just passed
seventy-one. November 20th I'll be
seventy-two. I have glaucoma in both eyes.
I've got a cataract on this one.
ANDREW YOUNG: But you are
looking pretty fit, though?
LOYD JOWERS: I am. I exercise
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
567
every day. I do. I exercise every day.
Hell, I may live to be a hundred, but I don't
believe it. I smoke two packs of cigarettes
every day.
LEWIS GARRISON: You told
Mr. King before about a meeting that was held
in your place where some people identified
themselves as --
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah. Do you
remember me telling you that?
DEXTER KING: I do.
LOYD JOWERS: About these
policemen meeting there.
LEWIS GARRISON: The CIA and
FBI -- (Inaudible).
LOYD JOWERS: The CIA and the
FBI were there, but they weren't there the
same time all those policemen were there.
They were not there at the same time. But
that wasn't unusual. Cab drivers would meet
in there, policemen met in my place.
ANDREW YOUNG: This is all
before Dr. King was killed?
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah, this
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
568
all took place before. Very rarely did they
have any more meetings after the -- if a
policeman came in, it would be be Johnny
Barger or Clark or someone like that that
would just stop in for a minute.
DEXTER KING: So did you ever
overhear anything that they were saying or
did you have a sense for what they were
meeting about?
LOYD JOWERS: Now, I would be
working. You know how it is in a
restaurant. I would be working and I'd pick
up a word. I wouldn't know what the meeting
was about. What was discussed, I couldn't
say. Of course, I would only get a word now
and then from going by the table.
DEXTER KING: Now, you said
they didn't meet together. You mean the
Memphis police met separately from the CIA?
LOYD JOWERS: In the past,
yeah. See, this CIA business with the FBI on
my part of it was just guesswork, because
they always wear plain clothes.
ANDREW YOUNG: Did they come
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
569
together, the FBI and CIA?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, they was
together.
ANDREW YOUNG: But not with
the --
LOYD JOWERS: They were not with
the -- now, there was one stranger who was
with the police that I never seen before or
after the meeting. That was with Johnny
Barger and Clark. I just don't remember who
all was at that meeting. Like I say, I was
working. They had been there spending
money. Of course, I waited on them.
LEWIS GARRISON: How many times
was Merrell McCullough there before this?
LOYD JOWERS: How many times
what now?
LEWIS GARRISON: How many times
was Merrell McCullough in there before this
meeting?
LOYD JOWERS: How many times was
he in there? I can't remember. He could
have been in there when I wasn't even
around.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
570
LEWIS GARRISON: But you saw him
in there several times?
LOYD JOWERS: I saw him several
times, sure.
LEWIS GARRISON: He was
introduced to you as a police officer, wasn't
he?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
LEWIS GARRISON: Johnny Barger
told you that was his assistant or --
LOYD JOWERS: I believe he was a
sergeant at that time.
LEWIS GARRISON: Barger?
LOYD JOWERS: No.
LEWIS GARRISON: Merrell
McCullough?
LOYD JOWERS: McCullough. I
believe he was a sergeant when Dr. King got
killed. I think he was.
LEWIS GARRISON: Was he in a
police uniform when you saw him?
LOYD JOWERS: No.
LEWIS GARRISON: He was not?
LOYD JOWERS: No. He was
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
571
plainclothed whenever he would come in the
restaurant. I never did see him in his
uniform. Now, Johnny Barger always came in
his uniform.
DEXTER KING: Tell me again,
because I just want to make sure I've got the
details down, when you received the money,
who brought the produce to you, the produce
box?
LOYD JOWERS: One of Frank's
regular drivers. I don't recall his name, I
really don't, if I ever knew his name.
DEXTER KING: Do you remember
when you received it, what date and time,
that kind of thing?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah. They
brought my produce on Wednesday.
DEXTER KING: Okay. This was
afternoon or --
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, it would be
in the afternoon. I opened up about five
o'clock, got lunch ready, I wouldn't go home
until four o'clock in the afternoon.
DEXTER KING: Then Frank called
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
572
you that afternoon?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
DEXTER KING: To ask you
whether you received it?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
DEXTER KING: What did he say
about the money?
LOYD JOWERS: He described
this -- he called him a Cuban the first time,
then he called him a wetback after that. So
I don't know. He was a foreigner, anyway.
DEXTER KING: What did he say
about the money? He just said the money was
in the box?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah. He didn't
tell me where. I knew it was hid then the
bottom of it
DEXTER KING: He asked you if
you had counted it?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
DEXTER KING: You said no, you
weren't going to count it?
LOYD JOWERS: That's the first
and last, only time, he ever asked me if I
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
573
had counted it.
DEXTER KING: Okay. But then
what did he say you were supposed to did with
the money?
LOYD JOWERS: He said put it up
until tomorrow, there will be a wetback or a
Cuban by there to pick it up. I said, well,
okay. So I put it in the old cook stove I
didn't use, because nobody ever went in
there, and I knew they didn't. But they
couldn't have got by me anyway.
DEXTER KING: So did the Cuban
come and pick it up?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, the next
any. The next day.
DEXTER KING: That's the person
that is alleged to be Raul?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
DEXTER KING: Was that your
first time ever seeing him?
LOYD JOWERS: If he had ever
been in there before then, I didn't know it.
Now, I won't tell you he wasn't in there, but
I didn't know if he was.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
574
DEXTER KING: So you just gave
him the money panned that was it?
LOYD JOWERS: Sure. He walked
on out the door. Same way when he come and
picked that rifle up I took in the back
door. He come in, picked it up, hit that
door, turned right north on Main Street, and
I haven't seen him anymore since then.
DEXTER KING: That was Clark?
LOYD JOWERS: No, I'm talking
about Raul.
DEXTER KING: I'm sorry. I was
confused. You said you haven't seen him
since he came to the back door. Is that what
you said?
LOYD JOWERS: I'm talking about
the guy that picked the rifle up the next
day, the one that actually --
DEXTER KING: Is that the same
guy you gave the money to?
LOYD JOWERS: Yes, same guy.
DEXTER KING: Same guy?
LOYD JOWERS: Same guy.
DEXTER KING: Okay.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
575
LOYD JOWERS: Now, they said it
his name was Raul. It could have been.
DEXTER KING: What's confusing
is I think that -- I thought that the person
who picked up the money was different from
the person who picked up the rifle.
LOYD JOWERS: No.
DEXTER KING: It was the same
person?
LOYD JOWERS: Same person.
ANDREW YOUNG: But a different
person gave you the rifle?
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah,
definitely.
ANDREW YOUNG: Who gave you the
smoking rifle?
LOYD JOWERS: That was a white
man that gave me the rifle. I could see that
much.
LEWIS GARRISON: Wait a minute,
Mr. Jowers. You are getting confused. You
are talking about after the shot was fired?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
LEWIS GARRISON: A white man
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
576
gave you -- this white man gave you a rifle
after the shot was fired?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, in the back
door.
LEWIS GARRISON: You are pretty
sure that's Clark?
LOYD JOWERS: I'd almost swear
to it. But now as far as getting a good look
at him, I did not, because the thing really
took (snapping of fingers) that fast.
LEWIS GARRISON: But the person
who brought the gun in was the one he called
a wetback?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
LEWIS GARRISON: Then the person
when came back and got it was --
LOYD JOWERS: The same person,
sure was.
ANDREW YOUNG: Let's see.
We've got three trips: One that they came to
pick up the money. That was the same man
that brought you the rifle?
LOYD JOWERS: The same man that
picked it up, yeah.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
577
ANDREW YOUNG: He brought you
the rifle?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
ANDREW YOUNG: He picked up the
money. Then he came back and picked up the
rifle?
LOYD JOWERS: Now, wait a minute
now. There is a misunderstanding here
somewhere. I never seen a rifle in my
restaurant until after the killing.
LEWIS GARRISON: You said they
brought in a box.
LOYD JOWERS: There was a box.
How would I know? It had never been opened.
I don't know what it was. Now, there was a
box.
LEWIS GARRISON: A long box?
LOYD JOWERS: It was big enough
for that rifle to go in.
ANDREW YOUNG: Raul brought
that -- I mean the Cuban had brought that
box?
LOYD JOWERS: The same guy.
There are three trips he made.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
578
ANDREW YOUNG: Okay.
LOYD JOWERS: That's right.
DEXTER KING: Okay. So he
brought the box after the produce was
delivered, the long box?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, he brought
that separate.
DEXTER KING: But he didn't
deliver the produce?
LOYD JOWERS: No.
DEXTER KING: That came from
Frank's market?
LOYD JOWERS: Frank Liberto.
LEWIS GARRISON: You bought from
them pretty regularly? You bought all your
produce from them, didn't you?
LOYD JOWERS: The same driver,
yeah. It was the same driver.
LEWIS GARRISON: How long had
you owned Jim's Grill at that time?
LOYD JOWERS: I opened that
grill up I believe in either late 1966 or
early 1967.
LEWIS GARRISON: You had been
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
579
buying produce from this same place all the
time?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah. If Frank
didn't have something, I would get it from --
ANDREW YOUNG: Do you remember
what it was, what kind of produce it was with
the money?
LOYD JOWERS: That day?
ANDREW YOUNG: Uh-huh.
LOYD JOWERS: If I thought about
it long enough, I could remember. Well, I
know I ordered three or four stalks of
celery, because I was going to have soup.
You have to have celery to go in soup.
Anyway, I know that celery was in there and
maybe a head or two of lettuce. Just what
you would use in a restaurant.
DEXTER KING: Then when he
brought the long box -- when was that
brought?
LOYD JOWERS: What time of day?
DEXTER KING: Was this the same
day?
LEWIS GARRISON: Was it the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
580
same -- are you talking about the same day he
brought the produce in?
DEXTER KING: Right. The same
day?
LOYD JOWERS: You know, I don't
believe it was. I don't think there was but
that one delivery that day. You know, I
don't believe that long box was brought when
I was -- you know, I believe that long box
was brought when I wasn't there. That would
have been the next day. That would have been
the day that Dr. King got killed.
DEXTER KING: Who came and got
the long box? Who came and got the rifle?
How did they get the rifle?
LOYD JOWERS: If it was a
rifle. If it was a rifle.
DEXTER KING: Okay.
LOYD JOWERS: Raul would have
had to have picked it up. He had to come
after it, because I never give that long box
to no one else.
DEXTER KING: Where did you put
it?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
581
LOYD JOWERS: Under the
counter. Under my -- you know, you have a
long counter. I put it up under the
counter. Now, it wasn't wrapped up or
anything. It was just along box. It was
about that thick, about that wide. It wasn't
all that long. Maybe as long as this table.
DEXTER KING: They told you to
store it?
LOYD JOWERS: Just hold on to
it.
DEXTER KING: So they came back
to get it when you weren't there?
LOYD JOWERS: I don't remember
giving it to anyone, I don't. I do not.
ANDREW YOUNG: And the police
never searched your store?
LOYD JOWERS: No, never. I
talked to one. He said he was FBI. That's
the next day.
ANDREW YOUNG: But they never
searched your place?
LOYD JOWERS: No, sir.
ANDREW YOUNG: Never looked
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
582
back in the back in the storeroom?
LOYD JOWERS: No, sir. To my
knowledge -- it had a full basement
underneath that place. To my knowledge, they
never went down there. As far as I know,
they didn't.
Now, I thought that was kind of
strange. There could have been a half dozen
people down in that basement, you know. Of
course, there wasn't nothing down there.
DEXTER KING: Who owned the
produce company that sent you the vegetables?
LOYD JOWERS: Who owned it?
DEXTER KING: Who owned it?
LOYD JOWERS: Well, I always
believe Frank Liberto owned it. But that
don't mean he did. He always said he owned
it, anyway.
DEXTER KING: Did Latch have
any --
LOYD JOWERS: I don't know. I
can't answer that.
DEXTER KING: Did you know
Latch?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
583
LOYD JOWERS: Pardon.
DEXTER KING: Latch, do you
know Latch? Is he still living?
LOYD JOWERS: No. I met him one
time. As far as knowing anything about him,
I don't.
DEXTER KING: I wanted to go
back to the meeting with McCullough. Did he
come in with the Memphis Police officers or
with the Feds?
LOYD JOWERS: No, he come in
with the Memphis Police. I believe there was
a total amount of five. The reason I say
that, we had two people sit here and two over
here at a booth, and I took them a chair, so
there had to be five.
I know one I had seen -- I know one
I had never seen before and haven't seen him
since. Now he could have been FBI, could
have been CIA. I don't know.
DEXTER KING: You never heard
their conversation, but you had a sense of
what they were meeting about?
LOYD JOWERS: I knew it was
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
584
something illegal. I knew that part of it.
I would pick up a word now and then. I knew
they were up to something illegal, sure I
did. I wasn't really too concerned about it
because I didn't want to know about it. I
really didn't.
DEXTER KING: Did anybody else
see the money that you received?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah. Betty
Spates says she saw it. Now, whether she did
or not, I don't know.
LEWIS GARRISON: One of the
other ladies that worked there?
LOYD JOWERS: She described it
to me.
LEWIS GARRISON: Her sister?
LOYD JOWERS: I'm almost sure
she saw it.
LEWIS GARRISON: Two of them
did.
DEXTER KING: How would she
have seen it? Did she go and look in the --
LOYD JOWERS: She would have had
to have opened that oven up, the old stove,
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
585
and looked at it.
LEWIS GARRISON: We have taken a
deposition from her.
DEXTER KING: Now, Betty Spates
was the black waitress?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
DEXTER KING: And you had a
relationship with her. Is that correct?
LOYD JOWERS: That's true.
DEXTER KING: Would she have --
I'm wandering around a little bit because I'm
going off my memory.
LOYD JOWERS: I'm following you
pretty good. Go ahead.
DEXTER KING: Did she say that
she saw you run in with the rifle?
LOYD JOWERS: She said that,
Dexter, but she couldn't have because she was
not there that night. She was not.
Now, I was the only one working that
night. If Harold Parker was still living, he
would tell you that. He would also tell you
I went to the back door at six o'clock, too.
He was sitting -- there a row of booths
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
586
here. He was sitting sitting in the back
booth, and the back door was down here. And
the back door was standing open.
DEXTER KING: What did Frank
tell you about the murder weapon? I remember
before we met -- when we met before, he said
something about he said it was his property.
LOYD JOWERS: He said it was
his, yeah, he sure did.
DEXTER KING: But that was
after you retrieved it and put it under --
well, let me ask you.
LOYD JOWERS: When he told me
that, I had already given i to Raul or
whatever his name was.
DEXTER KING: The next day?
LOYD JOWERS: He didn't tell me
the next day, I don't think. Two or three
days later after that I talked to him.
DEXTER KING: No. I'm saying
when did you give it to Raul?
LOYD JOWERS: I give it to him
early the next day, sure did.
DEXTER KING: April 5th?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
587
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, the very
next day.
DEXTER KING: Okay. But
Liberto didn't know that Raul was picking it
up?
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yes, he did,
too. I wouldn't have give it to him if
Liberto hadn't told me. I believe he called
him a wetback, he would be there to pick that
package up you got in the back door.
Of course, after the shooting took
place, then I knew what that damn rifle had
done, I really had.
DEXTER KING: You had put it
all together then?
LOYD JOWERS: Sure. It wasn't
very hard to put together. I knew I was
right in the middle of it. So all I could do
from then on was keep my damn mouth shut.
That's what I done. That's what the
Mafia knew I would do. But I don't know. I
don't think we'll ever get any more with it
myself. Well just have to see.
ANDREW YOUNG: McCullough is a
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
588
pretty young man?
LOYD JOWERS: He was young back
then.
ANDREW YOUNG: He will be
around a long time.
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah.
LEWIS GARRISON: That is thirty
years ago. He'd probably be -- (Inaudible).
LOYD JOWERS: Don't he work for
the CIA now?
ANDREW YOUNG: That's what I
thought.
LOYD JOWERS: That's what I
heard.
LEWIS GARRISON: Yeah.
LOYD JOWERS: That's what I
thought. That's what I heard. I didn't know
that for sure.
LEWIS GARRISON: If this was
thirty years ago and -- I think he would have
been in his twenties back then, and this was
thirty years ago.
LOYD JOWERS: I think the only
way we're ever going to be able to prove that
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
589
this conspiracy is to get the FBI and CIA's
records on it. It is common knowledge, white
and black both know, that J. Edgar Hoover
hated Dr. King with a personal passion.
ANDREW YOUNG: But there
wouldn't be any record of it.
LOYD JOWERS: You don't think
they would make records on something like
that?
ANDREW YOUNG: No.
LOYD JOWERS: Well, you are
probably right. It wouldn't be too smart to,
would it? How do you prove it?
ANDREW YOUNG: Well, it is very
difficult to prove. That's the reason why
we've advocated what they did in South
Africa, declare general amnesty and let
everybody come forward and clear their
conscience.
LOYD JOWERS: Now, that would
work if they did that.
ANDREW YOUNG: And it would
help -- I think it would help the country.
LEWIS GARRISON: I do --
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
590
(Inaudible.)
DEXTER KING: Let me ask you,
Mr. Jowers, I know you are really afraid of
being indicted if you come forward, but what
if you were to come to the media, tell your
story, like maybe talk to a reporter who is
friendly, I mean, somebody who we feel would
be sensitive, they wouldn't try to paint you
in a -- you know, in a negative light, but
just tell the story the way it happened, not
the way you've been dealt with in the past,
you know, by some of the media.
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, right.
DEXTER KING: But what if they
did a print story first and then you followed
that up immediately, like let's say the story
came out in the morning and you call a press
conference that day and you told your story
in front of a host of reporters where they
can't isolate you, you know, like with ABC
Prime Time and Turning Point, you know, they
could control the message, whereas if you do
you it in a live press conference, they can't
edit it, they can't spin it in a way that
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
591
they want it to be, how would you feel about
that?
LOYD JOWERS: If I thought it
would do any good, I'd do it in a minute. I
think what it will do -- I'm going to tell
you what I think, Dexter. If I thought it
would do any good, I would do it in a
minute. But let me tell you, if I do that
without immunity, the first damn thing a
prosecutor in Memphis is going to do is get
me indicted.
Now, you can just believe that or
not, but that's what will happen. He has
already said he has got enough evidence to
indict me but he don't have enough evidence
to get a conviction. That's the reason I'm
not indicted right now. I guarantee you it
is.
ANDREW YOUNG: They would
indict you for being part of a conspiracy?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, they sure
would.
LEWIS GARRISON: They did make
that statement.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
592
LOYD JOWERS: Sure they did.
The fact is I've investigated it. I had four
or five beers in my belly, and I called him.
I said, you son-of-a-bitch, do you think I'm
scared to you? You are wrong.
DEXTER KING: Was this Cook?
LOYD JOWERS: What was that
guy's name?
LEWIS GARRISON: Glankler?
LOYD JOWERS: Mark Glankler.
That's who it was. I sure called him, got
him out of a meeting. I told him, I said,
hell, I'll come over and talk to you in a
minute.
LEWIS GARRISON: They never did
talk to you?
LOYD JOWERS: Ug-huh. He didn't
have a whole lot to say. I went off on him.
I sure did do it.
LEWIS GARRISON: From the time
this occurred on April 4th, 1968, they never
talked to you about any part you had in it?
LOYD JOWERS: No, never have.
Whenever I went down to the police station
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
593
the next day -- maybe it was the next day. I
think it was on the 6th. I went down and
gave them a statement, you know, about who
was in there.
Of course, that had just happened.
I remembered everybody that was in the
place. I knew most all of them. I knew all
of them personally, even the black guy they
put in, Frank Holt, I knew him personally.
But as far as them asking me anything, no.
DEXTER KING: What was Holt
doing there? Do you know?
LOYD JOWERS: All I know is what
he told me. He was going to work at the
produce place. Damn, I can't remember the
name of it. It wasn't Frank Liberto's
place. It was the one over on Front Street.
LEWIS GARRISON: I can't think of
the name of it, either.
LOYD JOWERS: Well, Carter's,
that's where he worked.
DEXTER KING: Did the rifle
have a scope on it?
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yes, sure
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
594
did. Clip-on kind.
LEWIS GARRISON: The problem
with wht Mr. Holt is saying, Mr. Jowers, is
they didn't operate at night over at the
produce company, did they?
LOYD JOWERS: To my knowledge,
they closed around five o'clock.
LEWIS GARRISON: I don't know
that he had anything to do with this case at
all.
LOYD JOWERS: I don't know,
either. Not really.
LEWIS GARRISON: There is
nothing to indicate that he ever had anything
to do with it at all. You never told anyone
he had anything to do with it?
LOYD JOWERS: All that detail
that come out on ABC was Willie Akins' idea.
ANDREW YOUNG: Was there
anybody black other than McCullough that was
in on the early planning?
LOYD JOWERS: Not that I know
of. There could have been.
ANDREW YOUNG: But he was the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
595
only one that showed up in your place?
LOYD JOWERS: He is the only one
that ever showed up down there that had
anything to do with it. If there was any
more, if Jones was involved in it -- that was
Dr. King's driver. I knew him pretty well.
Is he still living?
DEXTER KING: People talk and
say they have seen him, but nobody has been
able to really pinpoint or locate him.
LOYD JOWERS: I hadn't seen him
in years. But I did know him.
LEWIS GARRISON: Last fall, a
year ago, Mr. Young, you've heard of an
Officer Redditt, an African-American, I had a
chance to talk to him a long time, and --
have you ever talked to him, Mr. King?
DEXTER KING: No, I haven't.
LEWIS GARRISON: He said that he
was there and, as you know, had been watching
Dr. King and I guess Mr. Young when they were
in Memphis, and he told me he was startled
because he had no knowledge of anyone ever
threatening him and had no reason to. The
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
596
first thing he knew, some officer came, I
forget the name of the officer, and got him
and took him to the police department, and
the police commissioner was there along with
who they identified as FBI agents and told
him that he had received a threat.
They took him to his home. An
officer went home with him to make sure he
stayed there. He said he knew what was going
on. By the time he got home, he heard about
the assassination. (Inaudible.) Strange
thing to me, though -- I've seen so many
strange things -- there is Mr. McCullough,
undoubtedly with the police department it has
been established, there he was, an
African-American on the scene, yet Officer
Redditt and the firemen, they were removed.
DEXTER KING: I think the point
you made was he was not interviewed as a
witness.
LEWIS GARRISON: Never. Not in
the police department or anywhere. His name
doesn't appear. He is shown in the pictures.
ANDREW YOUNG: Sam Donaldson was
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
597
the first one that pointed him out to me. He
said he was with Army intelligence and that
he was there to make sure that Dr. King was
dead.
LOYD JOWERS: Make sure Dr. King
was what?
ANDREW YOUNG: Was really dead.
DEXTER KING: He was checking
his pulse when he leaned over.
LEWIS GARRISON: I heard he was
supposed to give some type of a sign if he
wasn't.
(Reporter note: At this point
the tape ends and picks up with the following
statement by Mr. Jowers:)
LOYD JOWERS: Snub .38, a
short-shot .38. It was and snub nose.
That's four-inch of barrel. It shot a
projectile about that long. They called it a
short .38. They didn't make many of them. I
got it stolen from me.
LEWIS GARRISON: Mr. Jowers, you
told Mr. King, too, before what happened to
the casing of the bullet. What did you do
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
598
with that?
LOYD JOWERS: I put it down -- I
tried to bend it together. Well, I did bend
it together. I put it down in the commode
and flushed it. It didn't go down. It
stopped the damn commode up. Anyway -- this
is the next day. I got it out. That night,
whenever I closed, I drove across the
Mississippi bridge, and about in the center
of it I throwed it over the side while I was
driving along. It is in the bottom of the
Mississippi River, the actual shell, the
casing.
DEXTER KING: What time did
Lieutenant Clark -- what time did you see him
on April 4th? Like how many times or what
time did you see him in the grill? Was he in
before the actual shooting?
LOYD JOWERS: He had to be there
before ten o'clock, because I left there
about ten, ten-thirty.
DEXTER KING: That was in the
morning?
LOYD JOWERS: In the morning,
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
599
yeah.
DEXTER KING: What was he doing
there?
LOYD JOWERS: Pardon?
DEXTER KING: What was he doing
there?
LOYD JOWERS: He just stopped by
like the policemen used to always do.
ANDREW YOUNG: That was
Mr. Clark?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
DEXTER KING: This is on April
4th?
LOYD JOWERS: This was on the
day of the assassination, yeah. I don't
think Johnny Barger come by that day, but I
know Clark did.
ANDREW YOUNG: But now Clark had
to come into the -- into your store and had
gone out through the back?
LOYD JOWERS: He didn't go all
the way to the back. You mean that
afternoon?
ANDREW YOUNG: That afternoon.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
600
LOYD JOWERS: It is a long brick
building.
ANDREW YOUNG: I know it.
LOYD JOWERS: It had an opening
over here. All he had to do was walk in
front of that fire station, walk on into
the -- no, he didn't have to come through my
place.
ANDREW YOUNG: What I was trying
to figure out is how did the rifle get out in
the backyard.
LOYD JOWERS: Clark had to carry
it out there, if he is in fact the one that
had it.
ANDREW YOUNG: So he carried it
from the back of your store?
LOYD JOWERS: Wait a minute. He
carried it from his car or a car. It could
have been a police car for all I know. I
wasn't back there. He carried it from the
street. Here is the fire station over here.
It ran around behind my store right around to
wherever it was he wanted to do the shooting
from, I guess.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
601
ANDREW YOUNG: But the box was
in your store on the day before?
LOYD JOWERS: The box had been
in my store, but I didn't give it to anyone.
That's what I'm telling you. I did not.
ANDREW YOUNG: Okay.
LOYD JOWERS: But now someone
picked it up. But I didn't give it to no
one. I couldn't swear it was a rifle. I
think it was. Which anyone -- you know, I
just didn't.
ANDREW YOUNG: But you are
pretty sure that when you were standing at
the back door, Clark gave you a smoking
rifle?
LOYD JOWERS: I'm sure it was
Clark.
ANDREW YOUNG: And then you put
it under the counter?
LOYD JOWERS: I broke it down
and put it under the counter. I breached
it. You know how you take the empty shell
out.
ANDREW YOUNG: Yeah.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
602
LOYD JOWERS: I broke it down
into two pieces, wrapped it in a table cloth,
put it up under the counter and put some more
towels on top of it. That's where it stayed
until the next day.
ANDREW YOUNG: And it was Raul
that came back and picked it up?
LOYD JOWERS: He didn't do
anything with it except left it wrapped in
that table cloth. He went out the front door
with it.
LEWIS GARRISON: What did he
tell you he came in for that day, Mr. Jowers?
LOYD JOWERS: What did who say?
Raul?
LEWIS GARRISON: Raul or Royal,
whatever --
LOYD JOWERS: He come to pick
that rifle up.
LEWIS GARRISON: Did he tell you
he came to pick the rifle up?
LOYD JOWERS: He asked me if I
had a package for him. I said, well, sure,
I've got it under the counter, I got it last
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
603
night. He said, that's what I'm asking for.
He was real short about it, like if
I wasn't going to give it to him, he'd blow
me away. Anyway, I give it to him, and
that's the last I seen of him.
DEXTER KING: Do you recall an
hour before the killing there was a phone
call made to Frank Liberto about -- in
Pepper's book they talk about this guy
McFerren overhearing a comment about "get the
SOB when he is on the balcony" or something
like that.
LOYD JOWERS: There was no phone
call that I know of made from my restaurant
whatever. I had a pay phone, but there was
not one made from my restaurant. If it
was --
DEXTER KING: You don't have
any idea who Liberto might have been speaking
with?
LOYD JOWERS: No, I do not.
Now, I had heard that, and I don't doubt it
taking place, but all I know is if somebody
made a phone call from my place, they would
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
604
have stepped inside and they called back
there while I was working. I was running
that place myself that night because I had no
help.
ANDREW YOUNG: Did you tell the
help to stay home?
LOYD JOWERS: No, sir.
ANDREW YOUNG: They just stayed
home accidentally?
LOYD JOWERS: I don't know if it
was accidental or not. I always wondered
about that, you know, because they were good
workers. Betty was a good worker, always
come to work.
ANDREW YOUNG: Is she still
alive?
LOYD JOWERS: Yes, she is still
alive. She lives in Memphis somewhere.
ANDREW YOUNG: Do you know where
she lives?
LEWIS GARRISON: She gave her
deposition.
LOYD JOWERS: She give a
deposition. She lives at 931 Roland.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
605
LEWIS GARRISON: I'm not sure.
Something like that.
LOYD JOWERS: That's where she
lives. I understand she either has sold the
house or done something with it and moved. I
have no idea where.
DEXTER KING: You mentioned a
pay phone. Where was it located?
LOYD JOWERS: Right in the front
of the building. There was a front door --
like there is a front door here. The pay
phone was between the front of the building
and my steam tables. Now, someone could have
stepped in and used that phone.
DEXTER KING: You don't
remember anybody --
LOYD JOWERS: I don't remember
seeing anybody.
DEXTER KING: -- about
four-thirty?
LOYD JOWERS: I sure don't.
That don't mean someone couldn't have stepped
in that door and used that phone and I never
would have known about it. Because I was
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
606
trying to wait on everybody in the place. I
think I had it full of customers, and I was
trying to wait on them.
DEXTER KING: Did you discuss
any of the details of what happened with any
of your associates, like Adkins (sic) or
anybody like that?
LOYD JOWERS: No. Willie said I
told him a lot of things, but he is a big old
liar. I ain't told him nothing. I'll tell
him that, too, if I ever see him again.
DEXTER KING: What time did you
come to work on the 4th, April the 4th?
LOYD JOWERS: Four o'clock.
That's the time I came every day unless --
LEWIS GARRISON: Four a.m.?
LOYD JOWERS: No, p.m. You was
talking about in the afternoon, wasn't you?
LEWIS GARRISON: He was talking
about in the morning. What time did you open
in the morning?
LOYD JOWERS: I opened at five.
I thought you meant that afternoon. I
already told you that I was home during the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
607
day.
DEXTER KING: Right. Did you
come in on April 4th in the morning?
LOYD JOWERS: I was in there
that morning, oh, yeah, about four o'clock,
because I opened up at five.
DEXTER KING: What were you
saying about four, that you came in at --
LOYD JOWERS: That afternoon I
come in. See, after I got lunch ready, I
turned it over to my cook, and she handled
the lunch crowd. Then I come back to work
that afternoon at four o'clock.
DEXTER KING: What type of car
were you driving that day?
LOYD JOWERS: I don't know if I
was driving my station wagon or my Cadillac.
It was one or the other. Whichever one my
wife wasn't driving, I was driving the other
one.
DEXTER KING: Did you hear --
were you told that there would be --
actually, I read it -- that there would be
somebody in the organization, in Dr. King's
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
608
organization, that would get him on the
balcony, so to speak, or get him in the
position? Had you been told that?
LOYD JOWERS: To my
recollection, I don't remember anybody
telling me that, I do not. Now, that doesn't
mean they didn't do it. We're talking about
thirty years ago or longer.
DEXTER KING: Had you heard of
anybody on the inside that they had
infiltrateed or penetrated?
LOYD JOWERS: Sure, I heard
that. I sure did, from customers in the
restaurant. I heard plenty of it. How much
of that talk was true, I don't know. Maybe
none of it. I tend not to believe half of
it.
DEXTER KING: What kind of
stuff did you hear?
LOYD JOWERS: Well, I heard that
Jones was involved in it. Then I heard that
the other person I heard was -- it wouldn't
make sense to me, but the guy that took his
place, what's his name?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
609
ANDREW YOUNG: Ralph Abernathy?
LOYD JOWERS: Abernathy, yes. I
heard he had him moved from downstairs to
upstairs. I always doubted that. But
somebody had it done. It had to be someone
in his organization that would do it, I would
think, or his security. I always figured his
security had to have done it.
DEXTER KING: You never heard
anything mentioned about Reverend Kyles or
Reverend Jackson?
LOYD JOWERS: No, sir. I never
did. I never did. I heard a lot of good
about them. I never heard anything bad about
either of those men.
DEXTER KING: Did Liberto ever
mention his ties to Marcellous or -- what was
the guy in Memphis? -- Genovise or Venovise?
LOYD JOWERS: No, not that I can
remember.
DEXTER KING: But it was pretty
common knowledge that he was associated with
the Marcellous organization:
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah. Half
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
610
the police department knew that. Or maybe
more than that.
LEWIS GARRISON: I believe you
are talking about prostitution, gambling and
what else?
LOYD JOWERS: Who you are
talking about?
LEWIS GARRISON: Mr. Liberto.
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, Frank? He
had a little gun-running deal, selling guns
to I guess the Cuban rebels, I guess, or at
least that is what I was told, you know.
LEWIS GARRISON: Gambling,
drugs?
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah.
LEWIS GARRISON: Prostitution?
LOYD JOWERS: I would think that
money I handled for him before the
assassination, that that money was going to
buy drugs, guns, and payoff money. Now, he
had to pay off, I can tell you that.
LEWIS GARRISON: Who did he have
to pay off?
LOYD JOWERS: Well, he had the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
611
police department in New Orleans, the police
department in Memphis. That got him a long
way. I'm not too sure he didn't pay
Mr. Crump some money back years ago. Because
he was one powerful dude in this town, you
can believe that.
DEXTER KING: Were there two
back doors from the building leading to the
brush area, one from the kitchen and the
other one from the rear stairway of the
rooming house?
LOYD JOWERS: Well now, are you
talking about where my restaurant was?
DEXTER KING: Yes, sir.
LOYD JOWERS: Okay. My
restaurant had a front entrance and it had a
back entrance. Okay. The upstairs had a
stairwell that come down the side, but it
stayed blocked off all the time. How they
got around the Fire Department blocking that
off, I do not know, but they did.
You could go down the steps, but you
get to that door and it would not open inside
or out. Of course, they had a front
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
612
entrance, and it went right down beside my
grill, which was inside the building, and it
went right out right next to my door.
My door was like here. Their
entrance was right here, just right around
the corner.
DEXTER KING: Do you know the
name of the people who were staying upstairs
in the rooming house --
LOYD JOWERS: Charlie Stephens.
DEXTER KING: -- on April 4th?
LOYD JOWERS: Charlie Stephens
is the only one I really knew. And the
crippled boy lived there. Damn, his name --
I'll be darn. I knew his name because he was
a customer that come in and bought a lot of
beer.
DEXTER KING: Was Earl Clark up
there or Raul that afternoon?
LOYD JOWERS: Not to my
knowledge. Not to my knowledge.
DEXTER KING: Do you remember
what Clark was wearing that afternoon?
LOYD JOWERS: No, I sure don't.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
613
He wasn't wearing a police uniform. I know
that.
DEXTER KING: I remember you
mentioning a white shirt I thought the last
time.
LOYD JOWERS: Are you talking
about the guy that handed me the gun?
DEXTER KING: Right.
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, he had a
white shirt on. Sure did.
DEXTER KING: Do you remember
what else he may have had on?
LOYD JOWERS: Dark pants and a
white shirt. Other than that, I cannot tell
you, because it happened so fast, about like
that and he was gone.
DEXTER KING: Are you pretty
comfortable -- I should ask, did you see him
fire the shot, the rifle?
LOYD JOWERS: No, I did not. I
did not. I heard the shot when it went off.
I couldn't miss hearing it. Whether it went
off from upstairs or down in the bushes, I
couldn't miss hearing it. It sounded like a
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
614
damn cannon.
DEXTER KING: You say it did go
off upstairs?
LOYD JOWERS: Whichever place it
went off. There wasn't but how many feet up
there, ten, twelve feet. That was right over
my back door. That's where the bathroom is.
My back door is right here, and the bathroom
is about ten, twelve feet above.
DEXTER KING: But if he handed
you the rifle, how could he have been
upstairs?
LOYD JOWERS: He couldn't have
been. Now, how you explain that and the test
shows that that bullet was going down, there
is only one explanation for it, and two or
three different people have said this
happened. Jones said something to him about
getting his overcoat or a coat, and he bent
over the counter -- this is the only
explanation I can come up with. He bent over
the rail. That's when he got shot on the
balcony.
DEXTER KING: From down in the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
615
bushes?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
ANDREW YOUNG: Your place was on
a hill, though.
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
ANDREW YOUNG: So the bushes and
the room were about the same level?
LOYD JOWERS: They were about
the same level. You see, if you shoot a
rifle --
ANDREW YOUNG: He was sort of
like that, leaning over talking.
LOYD JOWERS: He was leaning
over trying to hear what Jones was talking
about. That has to be the only explanation.
It went in long about here.
ANDREW YOUNG: It hit the tip
of his chin.
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, it did? It
did hit his chin? Okay.
ANDREW YOUNG: And then --
LOYD JOWERS: So he had to be
leaning over that railing. Now, if he in
fact was shot from there, from that backyard,
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
616
then that's where it had to be. I would say
it would be a pretty good angle from up in
that rooming house. Whether that is the way
it happened, I don't know. That's the only
explanation I have for it.
LEWIS GARRISON: Was the door to
the basement open that afternoon?
LOYD JOWERS: I never locked
it. There wasn't nothing down there. I
figured there was no reason to lock it.
There sure wasn't.
DEXTER KING: Do you know
whether Clark or anybody went down there
after the shooting?
LOYD JOWERS: I have no idea.
DEXTER KING: Do you think
Clark put on a uniform or had a uniform after
the shooting?
LOYD JOWERS: I have no idea.
DEXTER KING: But if he had on
a white shirt, would it have been easy for
him to change into other clothes?
LOYD JOWERS: He could change
shirts in a matter of seconds if you didn't
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
617
have it already buttoned up. Sure you
could. He could have changed that when he
got in the car.
DEXTER KING: So you never saw
him anymore after that?
LOYD JOWERS: No.
DEXTER KING: Who was in the
brush area at the time of the shooting?
LOYD JOWERS: I have no idea.
DEXTER KING: So you took the
rifle and just went inside?
LOYD JOWERS: I was already
inside. He handed me the rifle through the
back door.
DEXTER KING: He just came into
the back door or to the back door?
LOYD JOWERS: He was about from
here to Junior there. He didn't have to hand
me the rifle. He threw it to me. He threw
it to me like you would do a soldier. Of
course, I caught it. It had just been
fired. I heard it when it went off. I done
what Frank told me to, I broke it down and
put it under the counter and went on and
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
618
waited on my customers.
DEXTER KING: Did you see
anybody driving the Mustang that afternoon, a
white Mustang?
LOYD JOWERS: I did not. I know
there was one parked in my parking place when
I got to work at four o'clock. I pulled
right up behind him like that.
DEXTER KING: That was on South
Main?
LOYD JOWERS: On South Main. I
did notice it had out-of-state tags, but I
don't know what state it was. I knew it
wasn't local. I figured it was shoppers over
across the street over there shopping.
That's what I figured. I got as far away
from that sparkplug (sic) as I could and got
on out and went to work.
DEXTER KING: In your opinion,
and I know it is just an opinion, do you
think Earl Clark was the trigger man?
LOYD JOWERS: Now, you know, I
have an opinion of that. Now, my personal
opinion, I think he was. I sure do.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
619
DEXTER KING: Why do you --
aside from him throwing you a rifle, was
there any conversation you all had beforehand
or any talk you had heard about did he have a
reason to or was it just money? Why would he
have done it? What was his motive, I guess?
LOYD JOWERS: I would think
probably for money. That's what I would
think. That's what I believed at the time.
ANDREW YOUNG: Somebody -- was
there any evidence that he lived a little
better after the shooting?
LOYD JOWERS: I really don't
know, Mr. Young.
ANDREW YOUNG: You didn't see
him anymore?
LOYD JOWERS: If I ever seen
that man any more up until -- he is dead,
isn't he?
LEWIS GARRISON: I think he has
died.
LOYD JOWERS: I don't remember.
I don't think I ever seen him anymore.
LEWIS GARRISON: Even though you
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
620
had been a close friend and had been hunting
companions?
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah, we had
been friends for years.
DEXTER KING: What about do you
recall which police officers interviewed you
after the shooting?
LOYD JOWERS: I have no idea.
They really didn't do any interviewing that
night. They took down a name and address and
telephone number and told us to go home when
they got all the information, name, address
and telephone number. That's all I give them
that night.
DEXTER KING: Who conducted the
crime scene I guess interrogation? Was it
FBI or the Memphis police?
LOYD JOWERS: I have no idea.
DEXTER KING: What about the
people, Barger -- is it Barger or Barjer?
LOYD JOWERS: Barger,
B A R G E R.
DEXTER KING: Zachery,
McCullough, Clark, Liberto, did you see any
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
621
of those people after the killing?
LOYD JOWERS: You mean that
night?
DEXTER KING: Right.
LOYD JOWERS: Or the next day?
No, sir.
DEXTER KING: Or even the next
day. I know you talked to Liberto.
LOYD JOWERS: I talked to
Liberto. I didn't see him. I didn't see
none of them the next day. I sure didn't.
DEXTER KING: How many times
did you meet McCullough?
LOYD JOWERS: As far as actually
meeting him, like you telling me his your
name is McCullough and me telling him my
name, I don't think I ever did. I did know
him. I knew him when I seen him and still
would, I think, even though it has been
thirty years.
DEXTER KING: How deep do you
think he was involved in the killing?
LOYD JOWERS: I don't really --
really and truly? I think he was just
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
622
following orders. That's exactly what I
think. I always believed that. I believed
he was just doing what he was supposed to be
doing.
DEXTER KING: How many planning
sessions did you see him attend?
LOYD JOWERS: How many what?
DEXTER KING: How many planning
sessions did you see him attend?
LOYD JOWERS: Just that one time
when he come in the grill. I had no idea
what they were talking about. I got a word
here or there. I knew it was illegal,
whatever it was. It wasn't unusual.
DEXTER KING: And Barger
brought him in?
LOYD JOWERS: I didn't say --
DEXTER KING: Did he work for
Barger?
LOYD JOWERS: See, Barger was a
field inspector.
DEXTER KING: What does that
mean? He was over the uniformed division?
LOYD JOWERS: He was over a
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
623
section of the uniformed. They had four
field inspectors. I don't know how many
policemen worked on each section. If I had
to guess, I'd say about a hundred, maybe a
hundred twenty-five.
Of course, they had the city split
up. Each one of them had -- I believe they
call them assistant chiefs now, but they were
field inspectors back then.
DEXTER KING: How much money
was Clark paid?
LOYD JOWERS: I have no idea. I
don't have the slightest idea.
DEXTER KING: What do you -- who
do you think paid him, then?
LOYD JOWERS: The man who said
his name was Raul. He is the one I gave the
money to. He had to be the one who paid him.
DEXTER KING: Do you think that
Raul approached Clark about being the
trigger man?
LOYD JOWERS: I don't know. I
wouldn't doubt it, but I don't know.
DEXTER KING: Do you know of
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
624
any other Memphis police officers that would
have received money for the operation?
LOYD JOWERS: No, I do not. I
don't know that Clark got any money out of
it. I just know I believe he did. But as
far as I seen him getting any, he may have
done it for the fun of it. I don't know.
You never know about people.
DEXTER KING: Did you ever hear
anything about this hoax radio broadcast, you
know, that this broadcast was put out over
the police radio that the suspect was
traveling in one direction?
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah, I heard
about that. He was supposed to have been out
in Raleigh or somewhere like that, a white
Mustang, the police were supposed to have
been behind him, and James Earl Ray said he
was going the other direction going down 65.
DEXTER KING: Going north?
Going north or south.
LEWIS GARRISON: South.
DEXTER KING: South, rather.
But the radio said he was going north?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
625
LOYD JOWERS: Going north, yeah.
DEXTER KING: Now, it has been
said the only people who would have had the
technology to break into police radio
frequency would have been the military.
LOYD JOWERS: They are wrong
about that. I had a scanner that picked
up -- I think they had four channels. I had
a scanner that picked up all four of those
channels.
DEXTER KING: No, no, not pick
up but to actually break in and broadcast.
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah, to
break in and talk on it, that would be the
military.
DEXTER KING: In fact, that
came out in the House Select when they did
their investigation.
LOYD JOWERS: I misunderstood
you.
DEXTER KING: Sure.
LOYD JOWERS: I thought you
said --
DEXTER KING: To listen. You
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
626
can monitor. But to actually break in and
broadcast.
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
DEXTER KING: What about the
taxi driver that picked up the passenger at
the time of the killing and said they saw a
man who came down over the wall and get into
a Memphis police car up on I think Huling?
Is it Huling Street?
LOYD JOWERS: Huling, yeah.
DEXTER KING: And the driver
was killed that night.
LEWIS GARRISON: I don't think
he knows anything about that. What happened
with that was after this Prime Time telecast,
there was a gentleman that called me and gave
his name to Dr. Pepper, like he states in his
book.
The statement he made was that he
was a cab driver that night and that a friend
of his was also a cab driver and that this
friend was over at the Lorraine Motel and
radioed him and said I just saw -- well, he
said he was unloading some luggage and that
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
627
he was looking up and recognized Dr. King,
and he said -- he radioed to his friend that
"I just saw Dr. King was shot."
He said he called his dispatcher,
and he told him to go ahead and get out of
the area. So the gentleman called me who is
still living in Memphis and said that he told
his friend to meet him out at the airport at
a place they frequent out there.
He said two officers came out
there. He heard his friend give the police
officer an account of what he had saw. He
had seen just what you said, someone who ran
and got in a police car.
Then he'll tell you this today -- he
has talked to several people. But at any
rate, he said the police officer said, okay,
come down in the morning to the station and
give us a full statement. So the next
morning they found the man's body across the
bridge on the Arkansas side and they said he
had been thrown out of a car.
LOYD JOWERS: I remember that
cab driver getting killed. I didn't know
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
628
about all that.
LEWIS GARRISON: But there is no
account of it. You can't find a thing about
this. But this man will tell you that
today. I gave his name to Dr. Pepper.
ANDREW YOUNG: Do you remember
his name?
LEWIS GARRISON: No, sir, I
don't have it here with me right now.
DEXTER KING: This is actually
in Pepper's book, the name of the fellow?
LEWIS GARRISON: Yes. He gave
Dr. Pepper his name.
LOYD JOWERS: I didn't know
anything about it.
LEWIS GARRISON: I've had
someone interview him before Dr. Pepper did.
That's exactly what happened. Louis Ward, I
believe it is something like that.
DEXTER KING: You believe they
just got rid of the file?
LEWIS GARRISON: I think there
is no question. After we began to dig into
it, we could find no record where the man was
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
629
even killed. I believe his name is
Mr. Ward. He will tell you today that's what
happened.
He said he heard the man at the
airport tell the two police officers that he
had seen Dr. King -- he was unloading
luggage, looked up and saw Dr. King over the
railing, and he said he saw him -- it looked
to him like it blowed his whole face off. He
looked around immediately and saw a man
running and get into a police car.
Then he radioed his dispatcher. Of
course, he said they were close friends.
This man said he was out in East Memphis. He
said, well, let's meet at the airport and
we'll talk about it. He said two police
officers came out there and interviewed the
man.
He said, I heard him give the
statement, tell the police exactly what he
had seen. They said to come in in the
morning and give a full statement at the
police station. But then he was found dead
on the Arkansas side. The story was someone
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
630
threw him out of a car.
But we can't find even a trace of
it. In fact, the cab company claims they
can't find a company record that he even
worked there. We went so far to check with
the cab company. They couldn't find
anything. They won't admit it.
DEXTER KING: What did you hear
was learned about any prior knowledge about
the killing or involvement of anybody with a
public or private person in Memphis or
elsewhere or any state officials or federal
officials?
LOYD JOWERS: Any knowledge I
had prior to the assassination?
DEXTER KING: Uh-huh. Or even
after.
LOYD JOWERS: I heard everything
in the world I guess after. But I didn't put
much stock in it. Most of it was just beer
talk, you know.
DEXTER KING: Anything before?
LOYD JOWERS: Never heard a
thing before.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
631
DEXTER KING: You mentioned
Solomon Jones. But you heard that after.
That is beer talk, is that what you mean when
you you said beer talk, the thing you said
about Solomon Jones?
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah, I heard
that afterwards, that he was talking to Dr.
King up on the balcony. If he in fact was
shot from my backyard, Dr. King would had to
have been leaning over that balcony. He
would have had to have been. Otherwise that
bullet could have gone up. I mean, it was
that or it would have gone level.
ANDREW YOUNG: It could have
gone either way. It really -- you can't tell
which way it went because it was such a clean
wound that --
LOYD JOWERS: Didn't it hit a
bone in his --
ANDREW YOUNG: A bone in his
spinal cord. I don't think it hit anything
in his shoulder.
LOYD JOWERS: I thought it hit
his collar bone.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
632
LEWIS GARRISON: I don't think
so.
ANDREW YOUNG: The collar bone
is up here.
LOYD JOWERS: That's what I'm
talking about. It was like from here to here
just blown away.
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
DEXTER KING: Now, Mr. Jowers,
when we met the last time, it was clear that
we felt we needed to meet again to really
get --
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah.
DEXTER KING: -- get more
detail. I'm trying to remember, and I'm
going off the top of my head, what you had
stated today that you haven't already stated,
and I can't really seem to pinpoint anything
much different than what you already said
then.
I wanted to just ask for your -- if
you could help me here, because I'm trying to
recall was there something that I missed the
last time that you stated today that you
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
633
didn't state before.
LOYD JOWERS: The only
difference is that I'm almost positive it was
Clark in my back door, and I'm not sure about
the rifle. But I'll tell you what I
thought. I thought it was a 30-30. It could
have been a 30-06, as well as it could have
been a 30-30.
Now, when the shot went off, it
sounded like a 30-30, because they are a lot
louder than a 30-06 when they are fired.
That is two things. The other -- I told you
something else that I didn't tell you
before. I don't know what it was. It is on
that tape, of course.
DEXTER KING: Well, is there
anything you want to tell me that I haven't
asked that you think might be helpful?
LOYD JOWERS: I can't think of a
thing, Dexter. Now, I've told you up to now
everything I know about it.
DEXTER KING: What have you --
or from your opinion or what you have heard,
rumors included, at what level of government
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
634
or involvement do you think this
assassination was carried out by plan?
LOYD JOWERS: What you want to
know is where the order come from?
DEXTER KING: Right.
LOYD JOWERS: It is my opinion
and my belief that the order come from J.
Edgar Hoover. Now, that's where the order
come from.
How to prove that, there is no way.
I could just easily said the President, but I
know better than that, because I don't
believe the president would have done that.
But now J. Edgar Hoover hated your dad.
DEXTER KING: How could -- if
military were involved, wouldn't the
Commander in Chief by just from you being in
the service and knowing --
LOYD JOWERS: Well now, wait a
minute now. The CIA or FBI are not
military. No.
DEXTER KING: No, I'm
saying --
LOYD JOWERS: You mean if the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
635
military was involved?
DEXTER KING: Right.
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah. Not only
that, but there would be a record of it.
DEXTER KING: And wouldn't the
Commander in Chief have to give the order if
they were involved in something like that?
LOYD JOWERS: Some word between
the guy that was doing the assassination and
the President, somebody in between there
would give the order. But first it would
have to come from the head honcho.
ANDREW YOUNG: Hoover had a man
who was his number two man who was almost
staying in the White House, Lee DeLoach. He
was the one that was keeping -- that was sort
of telling Lyndon Johnson what they wanted
him to know.
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
DEXTER KING: Let me also ask
you is there anyone that you know of that can
present scientific evidence about this case,
anything that occurred that you know of,
somebody who is still living that would
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
636
have -- that would be able to say not only
did I see this, here is evidence, a rifle or,
you know, anything concrete?
LOYD JOWERS: To my knowledge, I
don't know of anyone that has scientific
evidence of which rifle did actually kill
him. I definitely don't believe it was the
one the police found. I'll never believe
that in a million years.
ANDREW YOUNG: Where did they
find that?
LOYD JOWERS: Right in front
of -- see, this was the street here and the
sidewalk. My building was right here.
You've got the rooming house, two doors here,
two rooming house doors, then you've got an
amusement company over here. His front door
sits back I guess it must be ten feet.
That's where the rifle was found.
DEXTER KING: So it is your
feeling that James Earl Ray did not --
LOYD JOWERS: No. He didn't no
more kill him than you killed your own dad.
No. No. Nope. I'd never believe that in a
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
637
million -- even if he told me I wouldn't
believe it.
DEXTER KING: So why was he set
up?
LOYD JOWERS: His own fault.
They got him out of jail. They furnished him
money. They furnished him passports. Now,
they come up with that tale about him setting
up a gun deal, but that wasn't true. They
may have told him that, you know.
But now he stalked your father
halfway across the United States, went to
Atlanta, had all that written down. Now, he
was doing that for the CIA and the Mafia.
That's exactly why he was doing that.
DEXTER KING: What if they told
him to go to these places so they could
establish a paper trail with established
documentation? If they were in fact using
him as a set-up person, wouldn't they want
him to appear that he was stalking him?
LOYD JOWERS: Why, certainly
they would. Sure they would.
DEXTER KING: So is it possible
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
638
that he was doing things that appeared to be
stalking but maybe he didn't realize it?
LOYD JOWERS: He probably didn't
even realize it, yeah. Yeah. I'm sure
that's the way it went down. I'm sure.
Because if he wasn't going to -- if he had no
intention of hurting Dr. King, which I don't
believe he did, why would he want to be
stalking him?
He was doing what he was told to
do. That was to make it look like that he
was stalking Dr. King, whether he was or
not.
DEXTER KING: Well, I think I
have asked --
ANDREW YOUNG: Do you mind me
taking a picture of this?
LOYD JOWERS: No, no. We'll
make you a tape of that, if you want to.
Help yourself. Go right ahead.
ANDREW YOUNG: Why don't you
lean toward --
LOYD JOWERS: Can you see all of
us?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
639
ANDREW YOUNG: Yeah, I can.
LOYD JOWERS: Do you want me
to -- do you want to take some pictures for
your family?
DEXTER KING: Sure.
LOYD JOWERS: Do you want me to
smile or not? Okay, I was just kidding.
DEXTER KING: Do you want me to
snap you?
LOYD JOWERS: Well, Dexter, I
wish I knew exactly who done the killing, but
I don't. If I did, believe me, I'd say it.
But I do know this for sure: It was a
for-sure conspiracy.
LEWIS GARRISON: Well,
Mr. Jowers, isn't it true that Mr. Young and
Mr. King --
LOYD JOWERS: Lewis, I can't
hear you.
LEWIS GARRISON: Isn't it really
true that Mr. -- that lieutenant Clark did
it? You know that, don't you?
LOYD JOWERS: I'm almost
positive. But as far as seeing his face, I
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
640
did not.
LEWIS GARRISON: But he had on
the clothes and all that you had seen him in
earlier?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, I had seen
him in the same clothes. But as far as me
seeing his face, I did not. Now, I saw the
back of his head.
ANDREW YOUNG: The people who
were involved in this as far as you know that
are still alive would be --
LEWIS GARRISON: Lieutenant
Zachery.
LOYD JOWERS: Zachery is still
alive.
LEWIS GARRISON: McCullough.
McCullough is still alive.
LOYD JOWERS: McCullough.
LEWIS GARRISON: Who else? Of
course, Mr. Jowers. Ms. Spates in front of
Mr. Jowers -- he knows because he was
there -- she says what he saw.
LOYD JOWERS: That was a big old
lie.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
641
LEWIS GARRISON: You know she
described it in lengthy statements under oath
that she saw this.
LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah, sure.
LEWIS GARRISON: You heard that
under oath, heard her say that?
LOYD JOWERS: Sure, I was right
there.
LEWIS GARRISON: She had given
the deposition. She gave affidavit after
affidavit and described what she saw. You
know, that don't you?
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
DEXTER KING: That's what I
don't understand. How would she -- why would
she go to that extent?
LOYD JOWERS: To get at me.
DEXTER KING: What?
LOYD JOWERS: That's why. No
other reason. She is really and truly -- she
is serious about that, too. There is not a
dad-gum word of it that is true, but she
believes it, and there is nobody that can
change her mind, that I actually done the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
642
shooting.
DEXTER KING: Oh, she thinks
you did the shooting?
LOYD JOWERS: Damn right she
said it. I don't know if she said it in the
deposition or not, but she told me that.
DEXTER KING: Now, how many
times did you see Clark that day in your
grill?
LOYD JOWERS: One time.
DEXTER KING: That was in the
morning?
LOYD JOWERS: That don't mean he
wasn't in there more than that. See, I left
about ten, somewhere around ten.
DEXTER KING: You said
Ms. Spates used to be your girlfriend?
LOYD JOWERS: Yes, sir.
ANDREW YOUNG: Hell hath no
fury like a woman scorned.
LOYD JOWERS: And, buddy, she
got one hell of a temper, too.
LEWIS GARRISON: She has two
children and says he is the father.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
643
LOYD JOWERS: I offered to go
with her to take a blood test. Then we'll
find out if I am or not. She backed out.
Right on up to the time to go, then she
backed out. She knew damn well I wasn't the
father of those children. If I had been, I
would have been supporting them.
LEWIS GARRISON: Mr. Jowers,
under oath, though, you said you were engaged
in a sexual relationship with her?
LOYD JOWERS: Well, hell, yeah,
for some period of time.
LEWIS GARRISON: That went on
for a year or two?
LOYD JOWERS: It was longer than
that, more like five years.
LEWIS GARRISON: I several
years?
LOYD JOWERS: Like I say about
the President, a man is allowed to do any
damn thing, you know, especially a lounge
man.
LEWIS GARRISON: Why don't you
step outside a moment and let me talk to
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
644
them.
LOYD JOWERS: Okay.
ANDREW YOUNG: We really
appreciate your seeing us, your coming
forward.
LOYD JOWERS: I hate I'm not any
more help now. If there is anything I can
do, you can believe I'll do it.
DEXTER KING: You said if you
thought it would help, you would come
forward --
LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.
DEXTER KING: -- to the media?
Don't you think it would cause people to
start --
LOYD JOWERS: I think it would
get me put in jail. I think it would get me
indicted. That's exactly what I think. I
could be wrong, but I don't think so.
DEXTER KING: Okay.
ANDREW YOUNG: Thank you very
much.
LOYD JOWERS: See you later.
ANDREW YOUNG: Okay."
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
645
(This is the end of the tape
proceedings played in the court room.)
THE COURT: All right, ladies
and gentlemen. This is a good time for us to
break for lunch.
(Jury out.)
(Lunch recess.)
THE COURT: All right. Bring
the jury out, please, sir.
(Jury in).
THE COURT: All right, Mr.
Pepper. You may proceed.
MR. PEPPER: Your Honor,
plaintiffs call His Honor Judge Arthur
Haynes.
ARTHUR J. HAYNES, JR.
Having been first duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. PEPPER:
Q. Good afternoon, Judge Haynes.
A. Good afternoon, sir.
Q. Thank you very much for joining us
here this afternoon: Would you state for the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
646
record, your full name and address.
A. Arthur Jackson Haynes, Jr., 3533
Spring Valley Terrace, Birmingham, Alabama.
Q. And what is your present occupation?
A. I'm a circuit judge, Tenth Judicial
Circuit, Birmingham, Alabama.
Q. How long have you been a circuit
court judge?
A. Fifteen years.
Q. And before you were a circuit court
judge, what did you do?
A. I was a lawyer, a courtroom lawyer.
Q. You were a trial lawyer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there a time in 1968 that you
were asked to become involved in the case of
the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr.?
A. I was.
Q. And what was the position that you
undertook at that time?
A. Well, simple arithmetic will tell you
I was a very young lawyer at the time. James
Earl Ray contacted my father, who was also a
trial lawyer. We had had some success in
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
647
defending highly-publicized difficult,
unpopular cases.
When James Earl Ray was arrested in
London and contacted us, asked us to
undertake his representation. Actually, we
were contacted by R. J. Sneyed, which was the
name he was traveling under on a Canadian
passport. We went to London.
Q. You and your father then became
defense lawyers for James Earl Ray?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were his first defense lawyers.
Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you undertake the trial
preparation of that case?
A. Absolutely.
Q. And were you ready to go to trial?
A. Yes, sir. Absolutely. He changed
lawyers the night before I was going to give
the opening statement in the case.
Q. You were prepared to go to trial
right up to the night before the trial date
and then what happened?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
648
A. I left James Earl Ray on Friday. I
spent all day with him here in Memphis on
Friday getting ready for trial. I returned
to Birmingham late Friday evening and came
back on Sunday night. I had to get new
suits, do some final things to get ready for
trial. When we arrived, we were handed a
note saying that when changed lawyers.
Q. Were you able to eventually learn
what happened and why he made that change of
counsel at the midnight hour?
A. I never did know for sure, Mr.
Pepper. That remains a mystery to me. I
know that he contacted us approximately one
week later and said, gentlemen, I made the
biggest mistake I ever made, would you please
come back to try this case for me, all this
new fellow wanted me to do is plead guilty.
Q. It was too late by then?
A. Yes, sir. The case was so bolloxed
up that we just weren't willing to get back
involved in it.
Q. Judge Haynes, since you took that
case up to the eve of trial and diligently
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
649
prepared the trial, you were very familiar
with the evidence that the State had?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. We're going to talk about a
particular aspect of that evidence here this
afternoon, but in general wh